photo enlargement (a big one)

Stop and smell the roses, and while you're at it take a picture or two.

Postby Ben_Ricci » Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:49 am

Kres wrote:Regardless, the issue is if the 6mp shot will look good blown up 24x36 - the answer is there is a good shot it will... but if I had a good film shot, I'd use that first.


I agree with this. Another thing being overlooked here (film or digital) is the sensor or emulsion can only render what is being projected on it. A 6MP sensor used with a low end lens will not have the same image quality as one used with a high resolution pro lens.

I wanted to add film has a number of variables that make it less reliable than digital: film quailty, processing QC, etc. So many things can affect what a film image looks like beyond the camera.
Ben_Ricci
 

Postby Kres » Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:18 pm

Ben_Ricci wrote:
Kres wrote:Regardless, the issue is if the 6mp shot will look good blown up 24x36 - the answer is there is a good shot it will... but if I had a good film shot, I'd use that first.


I agree with this. Another thing being overlooked here (film or digital) is the sensor or emulsion can only render what is being projected on it. A 6MP sensor used with a low end lens will not have the same image quality as one used with a high resolution pro lens.

I wanted to add film has a number of variables that make it less reliable than digital: film quailty, processing QC, etc. So many things can affect what a film image looks like beyond the camera.


Very true - the glass makes the difference, often beyond the MP rating. That said, Digital does still have it's oddities - banding, noise, jpg edging... from where I'm sitting Film and Digital both have draw backs once you get into the weeds. Now, good processing/lab/darkroom/PShop work can get around most of them.

No one should take my defense of film as a hate of digital photography. I love it, and will continue to cheer for it's improvements, I'm just not of the mindset that film is dead yet... but it is certainly bleeding. But I've upgraded my rig to bias the digital wave - Hell, D200 + 90mm Macro and I'm carrying $1,800 worth to faith in the future tucked in my saddle bags.
-Kres
User avatar
Kres
My other bike is a station wagon
 
Posts: 3415
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:45 pm
Location: NoVa... again.

Postby pbharvey » Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:20 pm

JimVonBaden wrote:At 6mp you are closing on the resolution of a film camera, technically. Though some may disagree, I believe digital is damn close enough. It should be fine.

So, what picture are you thinking of blowing up?

Jim 8)


Not sure really. Poster size is huge and since it's not a professional portrait, might look a little tacky in the house. I might take some sort of a fun picture with the bike and put it in the garage. Thanks to everyone for the input.
Brian
R1200C Montana for sale.
Good enough for James Bond, good enough for you.

Replace your heating and cooling system and receive a $1500 Tax Credit.
User avatar
pbharvey
Board Wizard
 
Posts: 1336
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:12 pm
Location: Highland, MD

Postby Sonar » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:41 pm

Hello Kitty wrote:
Sonar wrote:I thought this thread was about one of Kitty's recent Avatars. By the way, can you send me a high res version of the one with the shoulder rig so I can make it my desktop background.


Which email addy you want it sent to?


sonar626@comcast.net
Don C
2014 R1200RTW
I Buyed it to ride it!
IBA#: 357
User avatar
Sonar
Board Wizard
 
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:04 pm
Location: Severna Park, MD

Postby JimVonBaden » Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:46 pm

Sonar wrote:
Hello Kitty wrote:
Sonar wrote:I thought this thread was about one of Kitty's recent Avatars. By the way, can you send me a high res version of the one with the shoulder rig so I can make it my desktop background.


Which email addy you want it sent to?


jimvonbaden2@aol.com


Don, you messed up the e-mail address, but I fixed it for you! :wink:

Jim 8)
User avatar
JimVonBaden
Smooth Motorcycle Operator
 
Posts: 17669
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:48 pm
Location: Alexandria, VA

Postby Kres » Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:01 pm

Hmmm... email address's in the open, on a public forum, known to be cruised by bots...

Enjoy the SpamStorm on the horizon! ;-)
-Kres
User avatar
Kres
My other bike is a station wagon
 
Posts: 3415
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:45 pm
Location: NoVa... again.

Postby JimVonBaden » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:04 pm

Kres wrote:Hmmm... email address's in the open, on a public forum, known to be cruised by bots...

Enjoy the SpamStorm on the horizon! ;-)


Considering it is already on the main web site, I am not particularly worried. My e-mail address is scattered all over the web.

No big deal to me, spamware get's 99% of it.

Jim 8)
User avatar
JimVonBaden
Smooth Motorcycle Operator
 
Posts: 17669
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:48 pm
Location: Alexandria, VA

Postby JimVonBaden » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:05 pm

Good read from David Pogue, NY Times:

=============================

Deconstructing the Megapixel Myth

My column in The Times last week, about the general irrelevance of megapixels in consumer cameras, stirred up an enormous volume of feedback.

Most of the 700 e-mail responses, including many from experts and engineers, agreed that megapixel count has been promoted (by camera stores and camera companies) as a misleading marketing gimmick for years. My argument-and my test-maintains that 5 or 6 megapixels is plenty for enlargements up to, say, 16-by-24 inch posters.

There were still a few naysayers who don't believe the results. This one was typical: "Why do you insist in calling it a pixel myth? Other things being equal, 8 megapixels DOES give a higher quality than 5; you just can't see it."

(Um, dude? If you can't see any difference, then it's not higher quality.)

In this e-column, I'd like to expound upon a couple of points that my print column didn't have room for.

First, one reason WHY a few more megapixels don't produce any visual differences in the print.

Let me tease you first with this question: How much bigger can I print a 10-megapixel photo than a 5-megapixel photo?

Most people answer, "twice as big" or even "four times as big."

But they're wrong. In fact, doubling the megapixels of a photo actually lets you add only 20 percent more area to each edge.

Here's the math. A 5-megapixel photo might measure 1944 x 2592 pixels. When printed at, say, 180 dots per inch, that's about 11 by 14 inches.

A 10-megapixel photo (2736 x 3648 pixels), meanwhile, yields a 180-dpi print that's about 15 by 20 inches-under three inches more on each margin!

Upping the resolution by even smaller amounts (from 5 to 7 megapixels, for example) produces an even tinier difference-too small to bother with.

Meanwhile, cramming more pixels onto a camera's sensor can actually LOWER the quality of the photo. A former Kodak manager wrote to explain it this way: "Too many megapixels can actually impair a camera's performance. For example, the typical sensor in a consumer camera is 0.5-0.7 inches. The more millions of pixels, the smaller each pixel must be-and the smaller the pixel, the less light-gathering efficiency it has, and the worse the camera performs in low-light or stop-action shots."

Now then: At the end of the column, I pointed out that megapixels have become a handy crutch for consumers shopping for a camera. They'd come to rely on it as a letter grade that made comparison shopping easy-and camera makers exploited this fact. "Well, heck, this one has 10 megapixels! That's a lot better than this 6-megapixel model!"

But a million factors are far more important than the megapixels. The question is: Can we come up with a new one-digit crutch? Can we propose a more meaningful comparison factor?

Lots of you said yes, the sensor size is far more important. After all, it's undisputed that a 6-megapixel Nikon D40 digital S.L.R. takes better pictures than a 10-megapixel shirt-pocket camera, because its sensor is relatively gigantic. Its individual pixel sensors can be larger and soak in more light, even if there are fewer of them.

Unfortunately, the camera makers and salespeople aren't going to help you out here. You're not going to see starbursts in the ads saying, "3/4-INCH SENSOR"! But you should.

In fact, the industry seems to go out of its way to prevent you from knowing what the sensor sizes actually are. It reports digital S.L.R. sensor dimensions in millimeters, like 23.6 x 15.8 mm.

Consumer cameras' sensors, meanwhile, are reported as a ridiculous fraction, like 1/1.8"-and that's the *diagonal* measurement. Not only does that mean you have to do a lot of math in your head, but it's also counterintuitive. The measurements with a bigger denominator actually represent *smaller* sensors. A 1/2.5" sensor is actually smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor.

And how does that relate to a 23.6 x 15.8 mm digital S.L.R. sensor? Only Einstein knows.

If you can do the math-you can find sensor sizes reported at camera-review Web sites, like steves-digicams.com, dpreview.com, and dcresource.com-you'll be well rewarded. There are a million factors to consider when you buy a camera, but this one's a fairly good predictor of picture quality.

A better one might actually be on the horizon. I also received this intriguing message:

"Hi David. I am the author of Imatest software, which is used for measuring sharpness and image quality by imaging-resource.com, DigitalCameraInfo.com, and CNET, as well as many print publications.

"You asked: 'So what replaces it [the megapixel statistic]? What other handy comparison grade is there?'

"Imatest measures system sharpness as Spatial Frequency Response (SFR), which is pretty much the same thing as Modulation Transfer Function (MTF). These geeky technical terms have great value to engineers, but they scare off consumers, and they don't quite answer the question, 'How sharp does an image look?'

"I recently added a measurement to Imatest that does, but it's unfamiliar, even to most camera reviewers. It's called SQF (Subjective Quality Factor). It includes print height, viewing distance, and the contrast sensitivity of the human eye. It was used internally by Kodak and Polaroid for years, and it is the basis for Popular Photography's lens tests-but it was tedious to measure until I added it to Imatest. See www.imatest.com/docs/sqf.html.

"Incidentally, where the megapixel myth really goes berserk is with cameraphones. Limited real estate forces the camera modules to be tiny, which means that the pixels get tiny--well under 2 microns--when the marketing people force the engineers to increase the pixel counts, because megapixels sell. Unfortunately, tiny pixels are noisy, work poorly in low light, and may not be utilized due to a physical phenomenon called lens diffraction. Engineers are well aware of the problems, and they keep butting heads with the marketing people. Guess who has the real power?

"An industry group, I3A, www.i3a.org (worth checking out), is working to come up with better measurements to rectify this situation. It will be quite a battle."

Visit David Pogue on the Web at DavidPogue.com.


I thought this was interesting, and illustrative of our conversation.

Jim 8)
User avatar
JimVonBaden
Smooth Motorcycle Operator
 
Posts: 17669
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:48 pm
Location: Alexandria, VA

Postby Ben_Ricci » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:59 pm

Jim, that's quite interesting.

I don't remember all of the details, but it mirrors some of the debate going on between Nikon and Canon engineers. Canon's flagship DSLRs use full size sensors with 12+ megapixels. Nikon on the other hand has taken the opposite approach: smaller sensors and lower megapixels, saying bigger isn't necessary or better.

Thanks for sharing.
Ben_Ricci
 

Postby Kres » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:18 pm

I stumbled across a great tutorial collection on this site.

It's great for understanding arguments like this and making your own call.
-Kres
User avatar
Kres
My other bike is a station wagon
 
Posts: 3415
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:45 pm
Location: NoVa... again.

Postby Newzpix » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:18 am

edit
Last edited by Newzpix on Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Newzpix
 

Postby Kres » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:23 pm

Newzpix wrote:Every digital camera processes the image before it writes the file to the flash card. On a decent camera, you can control the tone, sharpness, and saturation levels. Set those wrong, and your image will never print well. Set them correctly and you can do amazing things. The problem is, those settings are usually found by drilling deep into the menu.

The higher you set the tone, saturation or sharpness, the less information is saved to the file. In other words, you are not getting the full quality of the sensor.


This is why I LOVE shooting in RAW mode - My D200 shuts down alot of the post processing to allow RAW storage. Made a major difference in my productivity spending about 2 days shooting, recording menu settings, comparing, and then saving the final settings in a shooting bank and on paper.

Newzpix wrote:Also, every manufacturer sets their light balance differently. Get you white balance under control and your images will look much better.


WB is one of those things that annoy me about digital photography. While having instant control over your ISO settings is a wonderful thing - the drawback is that it takes alot more time to burn to memory how the WB is going to play out in each shot at different ISO's. Years of shooting film I was able to predict that the Sensia would go yellow under this condition, or the TMAX would start to spot up under this type of Halogen light, etc, etc... Shooting digital is like having 15 rolls of film and 4 filters in/on your camera at one time - alot more of my cycles are spent remembering equivalences. Not a bad thing really - film was more of a known variable, digital sensors are WAY more flexible, but really can complicate your shooting under difficult conditions.

Newzpix wrote:If you have a low quality filter on your lens, it will greatly effect the tone, contrast and sharpness.

Nikon used to make a 35-70mm/3.5 lens that was standard issue to us at UPI and AP. We found that placing ANY filter over the lens caused a drastic reduction in the quality.


I had a friend - more like a mentor - that made fun of me for using high quality UV filters. $35 filters, where $11 were the norm. At the time I was wearing glasses and was painfully aware how much difference good glass makes. :-D

I've heard the argument that any filter kills quality - however I take it more to heart from you then others. That's a bit disturbing cause I can shoot in some pretty unforgiving environments from time to time... great shot verse lens scratches, Murphy's Law and oil smudges. Ug.

Newzpix wrote:As for the comments about lenses being different for digital and film, that is not a real problem. You have to change your thinking for the Nikons. A 18mm is now a 28mm wide angle. A 50mm becomes a good portrait lens of 75mm. A 300mm becomes a nice hand-holdable 450mm. But I agree, it will be nice when sensors become larger.


For me this is a double edge sword. I shoot Nikons exclusively - they just fit me to a T and I can pick any of them up and feel at home. While I don't miss tele-converters at all, I do miss having wide angle lens that don't pin-cushion as much. One of my favorite lens' (50mm 1.4 D) is more like a 75mm on my Digital bodies. I miss my "true" 50's 35's and 18's. But as with anything, its change, and change takes time to get used to. I share my D series lens tween the Digitals and my N90s - and I do prefer the framing on the film body.

Newzpix wrote:A good source of info for digital is my pal Rob Galbraith

http://www.robgalbraith.com


Wow... great link and great comments. I wanna have your job when I grow up! :D
-Kres
User avatar
Kres
My other bike is a station wagon
 
Posts: 3415
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:45 pm
Location: NoVa... again.

Previous

Return to Impressions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron