Group Riding: Questions, Comments, Otherwise

[markf]

I should stay out of this but...

I've never liked group rides. It's less fun for the rider (me)!

So, for me a group ride is 3 bikes. If another group of 3 (or a few groups) wanna meet up at common stops that's great.

[RocketMan]

I should stay out of this but...

I've never liked group rides. It's less fun for the rider (me)!

So, for me a group ride is 3 bikes. If another group of 3 (or a few groups) wanna meet up at common stops that's great.

As do many folks, nothing wrong with that at all, I'm basically the same way, yet it can be fun to go for a ride with others, which is why I brought this whole subject up, as several have pointed out if there more than 4 or so then it should be broken up into small groups of like minded riders, style/experience wise. This allows everyone to have a fun and enjoyable ride, then share the whole experience with others at stops or the end of the ride. That just enhances the whole experience and allows everyone to enjoy the camaraderie of the group experience and yet keeps everyone happy and safe. The two do NOT have to be mutually exclusive if done right.

RM

[The Dude!]

avoid group riding in numbers greater then three or four!

+1

My regiment is cracking down on safety, and Motorcyclists are number one on the hit list. We are one of the only units in the Army that hasn't had a death from a Motorcycle accident, and the powers that be seem to be worried that we're overdue. They are right now trying to organize a club to promote mentorship of young riders to further insure that we will remain safe. One of the first suggestions was to sponsor a group ride. I am terrified of what this might turn into. Picture twenty to forty riders...all on different bikes with different skill levels, trying to caravan from Ft Myer to Gettysburg.

I am waiting until an event is organized to speak up, mostly hoping that the idea burns out before it even gets off the ground.

I wouldn't mind riding in pairs, or even a group as large as five, so that the soldiers could learn about group riding, and see a more experienced rider ahead taking some twisties...but it seems a recipie for disaster as conceived so far.

CD:

The Air Force Motorcycle Mentorship Program was what kicked off the Army Program. The AF has already cut the number of fatalities by over 50% since the program's inception in 2003, and the Army units that have one running are showing great success. Give it a chance.

Regarding the group ride, if you know how to do it safely or think it's a concern step up. The MMP's operate on the experienced educating and influencing the n00bs.

Please understand...I'm not down on the program itself. I just fear the group rides. They sound a bit too much like our morale-boosting runs, where about five hundred guys form up and run five miles or so.

I understand where you're coming from, and from what I know about you figure you're one of the experienced riders of your unit. You need to step forward and volunteer (i just cringed too) the experience and information you have. If you need numbers or guidance to back up your information let me know, I'll see what I can find.

[Kres]

At the KTM Class we used a simple system that worked out very well.

At a turn, you used your bikes signal AS WELL AS hand signals. When you were following someone you repeat back the signal to let the guy in front KNOW you saw it.

If your the last person in a small pack of people in a larger group you WAIT by the turn to indicate to the next group the direction of travel. As soon as the approaching rider mirror's your signal, then your free to leave.

This system also assumes that the Sweeper is knowledgable of the area. Sweepers need to be good riders - the accordian effect will keep them occupied as well as sheep dogging if there are new or unfamiler riders in the larger group.

[Hodge Podge]

If your the last person in a small pack of people in a larger group you WAIT by the turn to indicate to the next group the direction of travel. As soon as the approaching rider mirror's your signal, then your free to leave.

This system also assumes that the Sweeper is knowledgable of the area. Sweepers need to be good riders - the accordian effect will keep them occupied as well as sheep dogging if there are new or unfamiler riders in the larger group.

You just hit on my biggest point in group rides - the leader and the sweeper need to be on the same page at all times, and know how to communicate with each other. The sweeper leaves no one behind, and the leader considers no turn completed (street to street, of course, not simply a corner) until the sweeper is in sight has completed the turn.

If a member of the group isn't up to the pace, the sweeper stays back with them at their pace, but the turn rule above is still in effect. When the leader finishes the route, the sweeper shouldn't be far behind - always bring back the same number you leave with.

Been on way too many group rides that ended badly with split groups, freaked out riders, completely lost groups, or wrecks because people were rushed or the leader took off after a turn without accounting for the rest of the group.

[Unity]

Been on way too many group rides that ended badly with split groups, freaked out riders, completely lost groups, or wrecks because people were rushed or the leader took off after a turn without accounting for the rest of the group.

I.e., a group ride is not a hare-and-hounds.

--John
(Three? I'll do three. Four? yeah, I suppose. Five? only if I know everybody.)

[RocketMan]

But then aren't mine generally that way!
but to return to the issue..

Some additional thoughts as they came to mind:

1. On the subject of ATGATT: While I certainly agree that it is a good idea I would caution against having it as a requirement for joining the group ride as I see the potential of it leading us down a “slippery slope” for the following reasons.

What constitutes ATGATT exactly? I have seen/known folks who ride with a padded jacket and pants, boots, full face and gloves, that on the surface all appear to meet the idea of ATGATT, yet on closer inspection may not really fit the bill. Some examples that come to mind are boots and or gloves are not designed for riding per se, yet the wearer may feel they are adequate. Take gloves for instance, (and I’ll use myself as an example), they may just be regular gloves or shortly fingerless type. Now lets look at boots again using what I wear. The ones I wear are not really designed for riding, but they are very sturdy (Red Wing Construction Boots) and provide as much protection as many “Motorcycle” boots I’ve seen, even more than some I imagine. As for helmets, again there are helmets that are DOT or Shell approved and then there are ones that that are not approved by one or either agency/group, yet may or may not provide adequate protection to the wearer. In fact, I’ve seen a number of threads about the whole Shell standard that question its authoritiveness.

So that leads to the question of who makes the decision within the group as to whether or not the riders equipment meets the ATTGATT standard? And do they then inform the person they can’t join the ride? The other problem here is that this could lead to other safety issues being a criteria for joining the ride, such as are all the bikes in the group properly maintained? Some items might be easily spotted such as, are the tires in good shape, lighting in working order, etc. But what about other less noticeable items, even ones that would require some more through examination, such as brakes, cables, etc? Are the wheels bearings in good shape, all critical bolts tightened properly so parts don’t fly off or wheels lock up, etc. See where I’m going with this? Where do you draw the line and who draws it?

While I realize some of these may seem a bit extreme the point is that if we start to include “safety” related issues on apparel it could lead to other things and who then draws the line/makes the determination for such issues. Again this leads back to “over regulating” the ride to the point where folks may shy away from joining and puts an undue burden on the group as a whole or the designated leader. This I think should be a personal choice, if you show up for a ride and you see something, be it rider wear or condition of a bike that bothers you, then it should be up to that individual as to whether they want to join in the ride based on their personal assessment.

2. Determining the style of the ride: In general not a bad idea, but I would caution here too about making such group decisions as to at how fast in terms of specifics such as 10 over the limit and especially about group decisions on such things as passing on a double yellow or not. That should be a personal decision and in any case there should NEVER be a group decision made about any practice that is illegal or breaks any regulations. Another problem I have with that is how is this to be decided on. Is it to be a majority rule or is any single individuals objection sufficient to determine the group riding style? I base this on the fact that such decisions go directly against the whole “ride your own ride” concept and can lead even the best rider to over step their own normal riding style because of a desire to keep up with the group or group pressure (and I don’t mean to imply the group is forcing such a decision by any means). here once again this is based on personal experience, because it happened to me once fairly recently and I’ve been riding for 40+ years and consider myself a damn good rider who normally exercises pretty good self-control. It bothered me so much that I addressed this subject in one of my article on VirginiaWind which you can read at the link below. http://www.virginiawind.com/byways/confession.asp

3. As to my list of three basic rules in my pervious post I would have to add several others that I thought about last night. The first was passing/shifting lanes, the others being following distances, and staggered formation riding.

A: In regards to passing/shifting lanes I'm talking about on a multi-lane highway, not passing slower vehicles on a 2 lane road. A practice that I’ve seen by a number of groups that seems to make sense to me and try to adhere to when I’m riding with a group, esp toward the rear. The idea is that when the leader signals for a lane change, the riders in the rear, specifically the tail gunner, MOVES OVER FIRST, securing the lane, and thereby ensuring that the entire group can stay together and you don’t end up with any vehicle in the middle of the group so no one will be forced to try to “zip” around the vehicle in the line of bikes and try to squeeze back into the group.

B: Following Distances: Here again I have found that many groups have a “3 second” rule. I would have to view that as a bare minimum and caution that it needs to be considered in light of several factors. In my view ALWAYS trying to adhere to rule is a bit extreme. Rather, it needs to be flexible enough to allow for other factors that can come into play such as type of road and weather conditions. Also another consideration is the machine you are riding. I’ll take myself as an example. I ride and older bike with a single disk front brake and I know I don’t have the stopping power of most modern machines so I maintain a distance that is greater than many other riders since I know I need more room to stop safely esp. in a “panic” stop. This relates to another basic rule of safe riding (be it in a group or solo) “know your machine”. Some groups are very adamant about this 3 second rule, not only as a minimum but also as a Maximum, and thus fail to consider the individual machine’s capabilities, road conditions, etc; this to me is just plain nuts!

C: Staggered formation: Again this a great rule for highway riding, and even on two lane roads, but as the groups I’ve ridden with often head for the twister roads this has to be flexible so that when the road becomes more challenging the group should spread out allowing each rider to have the entire lane to maneuver in to find the best line through the corners. Seems fairly obvious, yet I have seen groups try to maintain the 3 second rule and staggered formation rule on such roads as 211 up over the Blue Ridge.


So, in light of the above I’d have to modify my original basic rules to include 3 more making 6 all told (some more obvious than others).

1. First and foremost !!!ALWAYS RIDE YOUR OWN RIDE!!!

2. Some basic hand signals, the two most important being how to tell others you need to pull over, for fuel, trouble, etc or that you are simply leaving the group and don’t need anyone following or stopping with you.

3. A basic route plan and some stops for folks to regroup/catch up.

4. Last rider is, by default the sweeper, if someone pulls over and doesn’t have time to signal the individual having to stop will have at least one person with him/her. Then if they can’t solve the problem, the sweeper can go for help, catch up with the group at the next planned stop, etc.

5. Keeping an eye on what is happening with the bikes in front. Here again going back to the last ride I was on, I was really surprised no one besides me noticed the blinking stop lights on the bike that obviously indicated a problem, greater awareness of others and their machines is paramount for a safe ride for all in the group!

6. When the leader signals for a lane change, the riders in the rear, specifically the tail gunner, MOVES OVER FIRST, securing the lane, and thereby ensuring that the entire group can stay together and you don’t end up with any vehicle in the middle of the group.

Please understand I'm not "picking" on anyone or any idea discussed or proposed, just stating some additional concerns and additional points as they come to mind based on others input, what I’ve seem on the road, and what I’ve found on the net. Each of us may have different views, which is why this discussion started, the idea here to find some middle ground that allows for the greatest number of folks to enjoy rides together and yet maintain some basic safely rules and ensure no one ever gets left behind. At least, that is how I perceive the goal of this thread.

RM

[JimVonBaden]

Well said Jeff, and some very good rules to ride by.

I, in general, dislike too many rules. I have seen cruiser riders riding side-by-side at 60 mph on a two lane road, with only a bare second between them. They told me they were very safe, as long as everyone followed the rules.

HOG rides often include 20+ bikes with a very strict set of rules. This is all fine, until the unexpected happens, like a squirell or other animal. Then you end up with several bikes down.

Lack of experience plays a roll. On my last group ride I was a bit abrupt when I said that if you are not comfortable riding fast that you should pick another group to ride with. It wasn't in any way a form of exclusion, but it was a way, a poor one, to warn others that I am not a cruiser rider who goes at or below the limit.

I have no problem with that, but it isn't for me.

As for the lead roll, I have a lot to learn about doing it 100% right, and this thread is a way to help me get there, along with others.

Having said all that, I would prefer to keep the rules specific but basic in my rides.

Keep it coming, and I will compile a list of reasonable rules, and a list of rules, seperately, that I personally would like when I group ride.

Lot's of room for discussion here, and I am certainly no authority on the subject.

Jim

[cdbugler]

Yea Jeff, good post. I wanted Cliff's notes, and had to come back to actually read it a while after I first saw it. But it was worth it.

[Hello Kitty]

Well said Jeff, and some very good rules to ride by.

I, in general, dislike too many rules. I have seen cruiser riders riding side-by-side at 60 mph on a two lane road, with only a bare second between them. They told me they were very safe, as long as everyone followed the rules.

HOG rides often include 20+ bikes with a very strict set of rules. This is all fine, until the unexpected happens, like a squirell or other animal. Then you end up with several bikes down.

Lack of experience plays a roll. On my last group ride I was a bit abrupt when I said that if you are not comfortable riding fast that you should pick another group to ride with. It wasn't in any way a form of exclusion, but it was a way, a poor one, to warn others that I am not a cruiser rider who goes at or below the limit.

I have no problem with that, but it isn't for me.

As for the lead roll, I have a lot to learn about doing it 100% right, and this thread is a way to help me get there, along with others.
Having said all that, I would prefer to keep the rules specific but basic in my rides.

Keep it coming, and I will compile a list of reasonable rules, and a list of rules, seperately, that I personally would like when I group ride.

Lot's of room for discussion here, and I am certainly no authority on the subject.

Jim

As long as you never think you are 100% right!

[eap]

From the TVR website -http://www.twinvalleyriders.com/frameset_new.html I think these are as simple and effective as you can get. Some of the points made by RM and other (such as the sweeper moving over first to reserve the lane when the lead signals a lane change) are more 'advanced' techniques not necessarily for informal 'group' rides but more for formal club and formation riding.
__________________________________________________________
Twin Valley Riders - Ride Guidelines

The breakfast and other group rides are planned to provide enjoyment and safety. We ride together to enjoy ourselves, the beautiful area in which we live, and each other’s company. We try to look out for one another. We expect members and guests to ride together as we hope to ride individually: within our skill limits and comfort range. Whoever is group leader (this is an ad-hoc deal, not a grandiose official position) expects riders to ride no faster than they are comfortable; the group will wait at planned stops for folks to catch up (and will investigate if they don't). We like to keep the TVR riding groups highly elastic and flexible, but have adopted the following common sense guidelines to promote a safe and pleasant experience for all involved.

1. Come ready to ride.
Arrive with a full tank of gas. Most rides will include at least one stop for gas, but planning usually assumes everyone can make it 100 miles before needing gas.

2. Make sure you and your bike are safe.
You are responsible for ensuring that your motorcycle is in a safe operating condition and that it will not pose a hazard to other riders or you. You should also have appropriate safety gear to protect yourself in case of an incident.

3. Gather for the pre-ride meeting.
After breakfast watch for the ride leader to begin to gear up. Gather near him/her and listen to the planned route/direction. Ride leaders should inform the group of the next planned stop. Knowing where this is will allow you to rejoin the group if you are separated.

4. Inform leader of any concerns.
If you are unsure of any aspect of the planned ride, ask. If you plan to depart en route, inform the group and line up ahead of at least one rider. If you are the last rider and need to depart, pass at least one rider before leaving so they will see you depart. If you feel you will be a slower rider, line up toward the rear of the pack. (Don't worry you won't get left behind, see 7 below)

5. Ride your own ride.
You are responsible for your safety. Likewise any tickets you collect are your responsibility. If you are not comfortable with the pace of the rider in front of you, SLOW DOWN. If you wish to ride a faster pace and a gap is opening in front of the rider ahead of you, make a SAFE pass (not in a curve, move completely into adjacent lane, etc.). If you feel you are holding up the rider behind you, you may wave him/her around at the next safe location.

6. Maintain safe following distances.
Don't crowd the rider ahead of you. Most routes will be primarily on secondary roads,; allow a 2-3 second gap between you and the rider ahead of you. When on multi lane roads, maintain a staggered formation.

7. You are responsible for the rider BEHIND you.
The ride leader can't keep track of any more than 4-5 bikes behind him/her. That means that we each have to watch out for the one behind us. If he/she stops or appears to have problems, then drop back or go back and see if help is needed. When you reach a turn, check your mirrors. DO NOT make the turn until you're certain the rider behind you sees you. At several points throughout the route, the leader will stop so that everyone can regroup.

Just maybe need to add a few hand signals and a sweeper.

IMHO - numbers 4, 5 and 7 are THE most important... I'm not 1000% coorect either, but try to ahdere to these basics and in the interim, until other more 'formal' rules are made, this is what I will expect when riding with others regardless of whether I'm lead or follower.

[VaSteve]

I see this is a little dated with little decided. What are BMWBMW sanctioned rides like? Specifically the ones detailed in the BTS newsletter? Too much for a new rider?

I do some "fun runs" informally with the car club and they turn into testosterone festivals over time where the speed limit is something that doesn't apply.

[wiredcur]

I see this is a little dated with little decided. What are BMWBMW sanctioned rides like? Specifically the ones detailed in the BTS newsletter? Too much for a new rider?

I do some "fun runs" informally with the car club and they turn into testosterone festivals over time where the speed limit is something that doesn't apply.

Which "rides" are those specifically? I'm guess I'm curious of the "Sanctioned" term.

[Blaster229]

* sanctioned* would be *sponsored*, correct?? BMWBMW does not *sponsor* anything, right?

[Unity]

Which "rides" are those specifically? I'm guess I'm curious of the "Sanctioned" term.

I believe it'd be things like the regularly scheduled breakfast rides, BMWBMW poker runs, and anything else the rides committee (Ed Phelps) arranges.

--John
("Sanctioned" just means okayed.)