Group Riding: Questions, Comments, Otherwise

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Group Riding: Questions, Comments, Otherwise

Postby JimVonBaden » Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:12 pm

After a recent group ride it has become clear that although the MSF has group riding rules, we don't usually follow all of them. Plus some of them are more fitting for the cruiser crowd than us as sport touring riders.

What I would like is for everyone to post their group riding tips, rules, and comments.

Let's keep this one on track and civil, and we will post the results in the first post when we start gaining a consensus.

Jim 8)

PS These rules and tips will not be representative of official club policy and the club will not hold any liability for the use or implimentation of them during group rides. (happy Ted? :lol: )
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Postby Unity » Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:43 pm

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Postby JimVonBaden » Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:45 pm

Thanks John, not that we use them or anything, but we should! :oops:

Jim 8)
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Postby BMWGirl » Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:48 pm

JimVonBaden wrote:Thanks John, not that we use them or anything, but we should! :oops:

Jim 8)



Yes - maybe we should. I think we need major communication before we leave. What a typical stop would be, how long between stops, how you ride. If you are a slower rider - where to ride - things like that. Communication is KEY!!!
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group riding

Postby kneeslider » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:29 am

avoid group riding in numbers greater then three or four!
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Re: group riding

Postby cdbugler » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:36 pm

kneeslider wrote:avoid group riding in numbers greater then three or four!


+1

My regiment is cracking down on safety, and Motorcyclists are number one on the hit list. We are one of the only units in the Army that hasn't had a death from a Motorcycle accident, and the powers that be seem to be worried that we're overdue. They are right now trying to organize a club to promote mentorship of young riders to further insure that we will remain safe. One of the first suggestions was to sponsor a group ride. I am terrified of what this might turn into. Picture twenty to forty riders...all on different bikes with different skill levels, trying to caravan from Ft Myer to Gettysburg.

I am waiting until an event is organized to speak up, mostly hoping that the idea burns out before it even gets off the ground.

I wouldn't mind riding in pairs, or even a group as large as five, so that the soldiers could learn about group riding, and see a more experienced rider ahead taking some twisties...but it seems a recipie for disaster as conceived so far.
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Postby wiredcur » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:52 pm

I thought the "High Beam" sign was "Look out, Cops Ahead" :lol:

or more over, "Alert!"
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Postby Hello Kitty » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:24 pm

wiredcur wrote:I thought the "High Beam" sign was "Look out, Cops Ahead" :lol:

or more over, "Alert!"


You know what, you're right. Cop is what I've always seen that used as.

I don't like groups either and I think bugler needs to speak up NOW before people waste their time organizing something. Just tell them why it can be dangerous and suggest smaller packs.
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Postby MrE » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:50 pm

Hello Kitty wrote:
wiredcur wrote:I thought the "High Beam" sign was "Look out, Cops Ahead" :lol:

or more over, "Alert!"


You know what, you're right. Cop is what I've always seen that used as.

I don't like groups either and I think bugler needs to speak up NOW before people waste their time organizing something. Just tell them why it can be dangerous and suggest smaller packs.


Me too.

What is the sign for "deer" or "wildlife"? Someone told me to just flash my highbeam (well how is that supposed to help people behind me?) but even for oncoming riders, that means hazard. They'll probably be looking for a cop, not a deer waiting in the bushes about to pounce.
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Re: group riding

Postby The Dude! » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:55 pm

cdbugler wrote:
kneeslider wrote:avoid group riding in numbers greater then three or four!


+1

My regiment is cracking down on safety, and Motorcyclists are number one on the hit list. We are one of the only units in the Army that hasn't had a death from a Motorcycle accident, and the powers that be seem to be worried that we're overdue. They are right now trying to organize a club to promote mentorship of young riders to further insure that we will remain safe. One of the first suggestions was to sponsor a group ride. I am terrified of what this might turn into. Picture twenty to forty riders...all on different bikes with different skill levels, trying to caravan from Ft Myer to Gettysburg.

I am waiting until an event is organized to speak up, mostly hoping that the idea burns out before it even gets off the ground.

I wouldn't mind riding in pairs, or even a group as large as five, so that the soldiers could learn about group riding, and see a more experienced rider ahead taking some twisties...but it seems a recipie for disaster as conceived so far.
CD:

The Air Force Motorcycle Mentorship Program was what kicked off the Army Program. The AF has already cut the number of fatalities by over 50% since the program's inception in 2003, and the Army units that have one running are showing great success. Give it a chance.

Regarding the group ride, if you know how to do it safely or think it's a concern step up. The MMP's operate on the experienced educating and influencing the n00bs.
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Postby The Dude! » Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:01 pm

mrenloe wrote:
Hello Kitty wrote:
wiredcur wrote:I thought the "High Beam" sign was "Look out, Cops Ahead" :lol:

or more over, "Alert!"


You know what, you're right. Cop is what I've always seen that used as.

I don't like groups either and I think bugler needs to speak up NOW before people waste their time organizing something. Just tell them why it can be dangerous and suggest smaller packs.


Me too.

What is the sign for "deer" or "wildlife"? Someone told me to just flash my highbeam (well how is that supposed to help people behind me?) but even for oncoming riders, that means hazard. They'll probably be looking for a cop, not a deer waiting in the bushes about to pounce.
I make moose antlers on my helmet and bob my head side to side.
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Postby kleks » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:13 pm

my "notes" from 10 years of riding with this same bunch of guys; btw - they are really, really fast - but also very experienced and safe. We split from DC-Cycles around 1996 after a large group ride with 3 riders down separately, bunch of guys in shorts/tshirts, etc. We never wrote down this rules - but we grew into them. The original group of 4 or 5 people is now closer to 20, some of us moved out of area, one passed away from the age. group age is between 20+ to 50+, all brands and makes, few guys race on a regular basis, we have quite a few Iron Butts, some rode to Tierra Del Fuego... you got the drift. It is not let's race bunch of guys.

0) ATGATT. if someone shows up undressed, leave the group. If asked, explain that you do not enjoy cleaning someone's blood from your clothes...
1) a riding group is no more then 6 or 7 people. If there is more, split, meet at the designated point. No changes between groups while riding - only at stop points.
2) Before ride, check who is in the group, designate lead and sweep. No changes of lead while riding; if you need to change plans, pull over and talk; lead and sweep might change for each segment, it depends on who knows the road, who wants to set the pace.
3) peeling off - warn before segment that you might be taking off; tell others where you will take off, and signal it clearly to avoid splitting the group.
4) ride your own ride. Never try to be as fast as the guy in front of you - that is shortest road to tow the bike back home if you are lucky, or get a ride in ambulance if you are less lucky.
5) Watch the guy behind you. If he is no longer seen in the mirrors, pull over, or at least slow down and wait for him. If he is missing more then short time, last 2 guys in line go back to check what happend.
6) Item 5 can be suspended if all folks know the road and destination, and agree on meeting later - but then it is no longer a group ride per se. If the group decides to split this way, slow guy goes after sweep.
7) Agree before ride on pace level - like 10 below posted, no more then posted, 5 over, free for all..... check if all members in group are willing to take risk of reckless charges. Agree on passing other vehicles - yes, no, only legally, pasing on double yellow... (not that I advice it). No passing in the group. It is not a bloody race.
8) give the guy in front of you this same amount of space he is giving his lead - at least.
9) warn other guys about your specific habits if they are unknown - like "I do not use brakes unless it is really deep $%*T already - so do not watch my brake lights; or I have a tendency to wave through whole line, do not cross my rear wheel especially in turns (not that it is a good form).
10) if you plan on introducing a new guy to the already familiar group, first take him on a solo shorter ride to see what he does. Then take him on a longe ride to see how it works... then introduce him into a special group ride where everyone knows that a new guy is joining.
11) ride is not a race. It is not a place for squidly behaviour - if you want to show off, tell other guys you need to get it out of system; they will help you and will find a place in next 10 minutes. Nothing more terryfying for an unexperienced rider to see guy behind him wheeeling from the stop sign...

12) this approach allowed us to ride together for 10+ years, slowly evolve group, introduce new guys. I thought it might be worthy to share it here.

Kleks
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Postby JimVonBaden » Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:59 am

Thanks Klecks! That is the kind of input I was looking for in starting this thread!

Jim 8)
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Postby RocketMan » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:47 am

One of the things I was thinking about when I posted my little tirade recently on the ride a few weeks ago was how formal we want to make the rides. By that I mean how many rules are “essential” without making the ride so structured that folks that might join would shy away. Most rides I’ve been on to date have been very informal in mature, sometimes that can be good, sometimes not. Depends on many factors, the main ones being in my view the number of people in the ride, how familiar they are with their riding companions’ style of riding and what speeds are they comfortable with and, what kind of ride is it going to be. Will it a long ride to specific location, say to a rally or other event, or a more leisurely ride, such as along the blue ridge where people might want to stop along the way to enjoy the views, take pictures, just wander, so to speak, etc.

A more formal ride might require a more formal set of rules, while a casual one, less. It should also be agreed upon at the beginning of the ride or even better when it is being planned.

Either way they should include at minimum,

1. some basic hand signals, the two most important being how to tell others you need to pull over, for fuel, trouble, etc or that you are simply leaving the group and don’t need anyone following or stopping with you.
2. A basic route plan and some stops for folks to regroup/catch up.
3. Last rider is, by default the sweeper, if someone pulls over and doesn’t have time to signal the individual having to stop will have at least one person with him/her. Then if they can’t solve the problem, the sweeper can go for help, catch up with the group at the next planned stop, etc.
4. Keeping an eye on what is happening with the bikes in front. Here again going back to the last ride I was on, I was really surprised no one besides me noticed the blinking stop lights on the bike that obviously indicated a problem, greater awareness of others and their machines is paramount for a safe ride for all in the group!

Many of the sites I visited in the past week or so seem to prefer having the sweeper position default to the last person in the group, as apposed to a specific individual, they also seem to go with the idea of just that individual stopping, not the entire group. This could be safety issue as well, esp. on smaller roads where finding safe room for an entire group might not be the best idea.

Size of group, I agree if there are more than six at max, then they should split off into smaller groups with the faster riders in the first, etc. With this type of grouping it becomes more important to have a route plan. Even printing out a route to pass out might not be a bad idea.

I know this would be a change from the way many of the group rides have been in the past, and may lead some not ride on a particular ride, (but it could also bring some others in that have shied away for the same reasons) but for planned rides we do need some more structure than in past rides. Again the level of formality has to be agreed upon *before* the ride, not left the last minute, unless it is a spontaneous ride, in which case less formal, smaller groups would probably work best, using at minimal the basic rules like 1-3 above.

So, those are some of my thoughts to toss around.

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Re: group riding

Postby cdbugler » Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:09 am

The Dude! wrote:
cdbugler wrote:
kneeslider wrote:avoid group riding in numbers greater then three or four!


+1

My regiment is cracking down on safety, and Motorcyclists are number one on the hit list. We are one of the only units in the Army that hasn't had a death from a Motorcycle accident, and the powers that be seem to be worried that we're overdue. They are right now trying to organize a club to promote mentorship of young riders to further insure that we will remain safe. One of the first suggestions was to sponsor a group ride. I am terrified of what this might turn into. Picture twenty to forty riders...all on different bikes with different skill levels, trying to caravan from Ft Myer to Gettysburg.

I am waiting until an event is organized to speak up, mostly hoping that the idea burns out before it even gets off the ground.

I wouldn't mind riding in pairs, or even a group as large as five, so that the soldiers could learn about group riding, and see a more experienced rider ahead taking some twisties...but it seems a recipie for disaster as conceived so far.
CD:

The Air Force Motorcycle Mentorship Program was what kicked off the Army Program. The AF has already cut the number of fatalities by over 50% since the program's inception in 2003, and the Army units that have one running are showing great success. Give it a chance.

Regarding the group ride, if you know how to do it safely or think it's a concern step up. The MMP's operate on the experienced educating and influencing the n00bs.


Please understand...I'm not down on the program itself. I just fear the group rides. They sound a bit too much like our morale-boosting runs, where about five hundred guys form up and run five miles or so.
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